What I'm not hearing though is how it fixed the issue with defense degradation. At levels like in the example here the issue isn't as pronounced... but when you have an off type defense of 30, each WEAPON has to roll against the square rooted defense value of 5... the off type stuff doesn't degrade based off the square rooted value. I'm wondering how this has been addressed, as it's really the biggest issue in defense in the current build.

Wow, how did I miss this thread.

First, I didn't even realize we could email bugs directly to Stardock, I only knew about the forums. Call me a troll, guess I just crawled out of the cave...

Second, yeah, the example of how defense will now work only raises more questions than answers. Is off type defense reduced to its sqrt value? Is defense that is reduced done so against all weapon types now within one round, or just against the one attack catagory in one round? Plus, the data used in the example doesn't tell us much. You have a 5 missile defense facing an attack roll of 7 - what makes up that 5 missile defense, is it reduced to a 2 against that 7? Same with the next one, we have an armor defense of 3 facing an attack roll of 6. But what if it faced an attack roll of one. Is it reduced to 2, or to 0 (sqrt3 being 1).

Although, I confess, we are a pretty demanding bunch. Nature of the beast. You have such a responsive and effective update system... with a history of fast, quality fixes. We have now learned to expect it to always get us our fixes quickly from experience.

Well, I'm going to guess that the square root value is still used when the defence is attacked by an off-type weapon. Otherwise, the defence won't actually stop any damage. What's unclear is whether the defences are still additive or now work in series i.e. when the shields finally go down, the lasers contend against the point-defence and then the armour.

In the additive scenario, the on-type defence is worn down faster when it reaches a low value, because off-type defences boost its roll value. Of course, it's always good to roll more than the attack because it prevents bleed-through to the hull.

With defences in series, the on-type defence doesn't get a boost and so less weapons are needed to knock it out. However additional weapons of the same type may not do their maximum damage until the other defences are similarly knocked out. This spreads out the distribution of bleed-through weapons damage.

THERE ARE BARELY ANY BUGS FOR THIS GAME!!! GOOD JOB STARDOCK PEOPLE, AND SORRY YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH SO MANY WHINY PEOPLE. FOR ALL YOU HATERS GO PLAY CIVILIZATION 4, AND IF YOU LIKE THE GAME KEEP PLAYING IT!!!

Oh by the way the defense bug is stupid. I didn't even notice, and I'll be ok waiting for the next update. You guys are ridiculous. So what a weapon is 1 point off. Why don't you try and have them find out the last integer of PI.

What I do want though is a list of changes for .72 I can seem to find them.

P.S. For people who keep complaining about the defense issue pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze please pleeeeeeze play a different 4E for awhile. You ain't going to find one that cares too much about your input, and you will be hardpressed to find one this stable.

While I am glad the Off-Type Defense Bug has been addressed, I am concerned about the way defenses degrade. Using the weapon/fleet setups from the example above:

Ship A1 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 8 ( B's defenses are now 2/5/3 )
Ship A2 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 4 ( B's defenses are now 0/5/3 )
Ship A3 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 7 ( B's defenses are now 0/0/3 )
Ship A4 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 6 ( B's defenses are now 0/0/0 )
Ship A5 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 9 ( B is defenseless until next round )


Now, what if the the rolls happened this way:


Ship A1 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 8 ( B's defenses are now 2/5/3 )
Ship A2 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 4 ( B's defenses are now 0/5/3 )
Ship A3 fires lasers and rolls an attack of 2 ( B's defenses are now 0/(3 or 1)/3 )
...
etc.


So developers, please answer, if defenses are hit with an Off-Type weapon, does the Off Type defense degrade at the value of the attack? or would it degrade at the square of the value of the attack?

If it degrades at the square of the value of the attack (2 ^ 2 = 4) This would replicate the ineffectiveness of the Off Type defense. Otherwise the example you posted shows that it does not matter what type of defense you have on your ships. All defenses (Shields, PD, Armor) will degrade at the same rate when hit by a beam weapon.

Anyhoo, I'm anxious to see this bu rectified. I cannot bring myself to play DA and enjoy it while this Off Type Defense bug is still occuring.

Sorry your highness. Should we not discuss the game and it's features in your presence?

If you have never noticed the defense bug that is not because it is not there, simply that you are not playing the game at a) a high enough difficulty or you do not pay enough attention to the battles and ships in your game.

That being said, fine, you play the game at a level fit for you, but don't preach about what is and is not there just because you lack the depth of game play to come across it.

If the defense bug was not affecting game play do you really think the devs would have spent time on it?

The list of changes has been posted, it is in another thread.

Dammit, where is Wheel? He usually takes care of this ignorance.

As to the question at hand, It seems now that the best defense will be the cheapest defense as the degradation is the same no matter what you are being hit with. Does this even constitute a fix.

I would like a little more clarification on this too.

We use examples of low values because they are easier to deal with. When attack values reach hundreds or thousands, those one points add up a lot and end up dictacting the outcomes of entire wars - even games. It may seem small, but it (can) have a massive impact.

Many of us, myself included, are very very satisfied with this product. That doesn't mean our feedback can't help the devs make the product even better.

We aren't talking about single defense points. We're talking about stuff like a precursor ranger with 20 mass driver defense taking on fleets of ships flinging massive arrays of beam weapons around without taking any substantial damage. A ship with the wrong type of defense is actually LESS vulnerable to damage, which is clearly off. Somebody posted a really dramatic example where a ship with all attack (somewhere in the 300s) fought a ships with something like 10 attack and 300 of the off type defense. The second ship should have clearly lost (since it should be rolling less than 20 on it's defense rolls) but actually ended up winning the battle with almost no damage.

We aren't splitting hairs.

On-type defence is still better than off-type because it'll suck up enough damage to prevent a lot of it from bleeding through to the hull. When the on-type defence fails, off-type defences will block some damage AND will probably allow more damage to bleed through to the hull. Therefore, it's most effective to have the right defence in place rather than the one which costs less.

Are you saying that the remainder of the attack does not carry over to the remaining defenses (if any) or HPs? Why are you not taking the sqrt of the off-type defenses?

Following your example if a fleet of 3 fighters each with a doom ray (beam 22) attacked a single ship with 1 of each defense, each doom ray would take out one of the defenses and the defending ship would take no damage!!!

Any damage points scored over and above defence are applied to the hit points. The example doesn't show us any individual rolls (for attack or defence) and therefore all we can actually say is that there is some kind of fix.

Actually it does show attack rolls, but not defense rolls. Maybe it was just a simplification...